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Author: Subject: The Dead Ringer Is A Hack
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mad.gif posted on 10/11/2009 at 12:45 PM
The Dead Ringer Is A Hack


This is why the :cuss: DEAD RINGER sucks balls and how the Spy most likely destroyed Fresh Meat's sentry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0_p6yEPHPk

It's not fair that you can kill people and buildings while you are cloaked as Spy with the :cuss: DEAD RINGER.

They say this has been fixed, but any invisible Spy taunt kill is a hack and should be banned




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[*] posted on 10/11/2009 at 01:41 PM


Yeah - only douche bags use the dead ringer :rockon:



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[*] posted on 10/11/2009 at 02:48 PM


So can we ban it from the server yet?



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[*] posted on 10/11/2009 at 07:05 PM


dead ringer for pros only =). that is cheap tho



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[*] posted on 10/11/2009 at 07:19 PM


No - we will just shame those who use it



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 07:21 AM


Here's an idea. Set a plugin to automatically beacon those who have the dead ringer equipped.



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 08:25 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Ch1p
Here's an idea. Set a plugin to automatically beacon those who have the dead ringer equipped.
plus1

And then set them on fire :lolhammer:




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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 09:43 AM


well that is kinda mean i love the dead ringer.... but that video used to dead ringer in a rather mean and exploitative fashion...
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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 09:53 AM


the dead ringer concept is stupid



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 10:34 AM


Just go pyro. Their fake body drops, but a burning shadow runs off. Just chase the shadow and flame/shoot.
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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 11:10 AM


Of course their flaming shadow body is practically invulnerable for 8 seconds - so they can just face stab you :roll2smile:



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 11:30 AM


As much as I hate the dead ringer, I think we'll be waiting it out. I'm pretty sure Valve will release a nerf for it since it's definitely way overpowered.



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 11:50 AM


It's not overpowered, it's absolutely useless. It's nothing more than an annoyance to anyone who knows what they're doing, or maybe if you get ambushed by more than two people and can't watch your back. And guess what, in that scenario, the rocket usually wins
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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 12:21 PM


If there is 'any' metal around then they can instant recharge and you will keep only doing 1 hp damage, pretty hard to kill, even as a soldier.



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 01:41 PM


it does more than 1HP do die with the dead ringer... i play with it enough to know that you basically have 4 lives until you die. thats about my average... 4stabs/4lives. until i run out of health.
I think that its good though, it increases the spies survivability. Everyone else has things to keep them alive, the spy shouldn't be limited to....uncloak, stab the uber/heavy, and then die... only serving one purpose. That is to suicide to save your team 1 less uber to deal with.

Did that all make sense?:puzzled:




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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 02:03 PM


An engi dealing with a spy with dead ringer is a total waste of space. It is nearly impossible to fight off a dead ringer spy if you're an engi. They have immediately health and ammo/metal available at all times and unless the engi decides to destroy their own dispenser (which is usually the only thing that saves an engi's ass), then they're screwed. The dead ringer is WAY overpowered. I wouldn't be surprised if we have an update nerfing it immediately after L4D2 is done.



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 02:05 PM


Name another class weapon that grants them a 4:1 k/d ratio (using your 4 stabs - 4 lifes). It is way overpowered IMO. A spy with a dead-ringer does not even have to attempt to be very stealthy.

It's very annoying to hit a spy with a crit-rocket and then have them face stab you 3 seconds later and see that they still have 99% health. Most dead-ringer spies these days don't even try to hide the fact that they are a spy - so easy to spot, yet very difficult to kill.




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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 03:46 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Chicky
An engi dealing with a spy with dead ringer is a total waste of space. It is nearly impossible to fight off a dead ringer spy if you're an engi. They have immediately health and ammo/metal available at all times and unless the engi decides to destroy their own dispenser (which is usually the only thing that saves an engi's ass), then they're screwed. The dead ringer is WAY overpowered. I wouldn't be surprised if we have an update nerfing it immediately after L4D2 is done.


ive never seen nor heard of that untill just now..... but yeah it does need to be nerfed in quite alot of ways. like maybe disabling disguise.... or less health.... or even better....if they are hit in cloak once it activates they explode and die instantly!
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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 03:56 PM


I have found this thread to be very cathartic :clap:, I am not alone in my dislike of the dead ringer :rockon:



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 05:55 PM


This exploit with the taunt kill was patched ages ago.



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 07:59 PM


Personally, I think the fact that it gives a damage reduction effect AND it can be refilled by ammo pick-ups is what makes it overpowered. If they removed the refill ability, it would go a long way to help balance it. The charge meter is pretty short, so it already refills rather quickly over time.



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[*] posted on 10/12/2009 at 08:31 PM


I don't dislike the mechanic of the spy throwing down a corpse when he's hit, this was a move they had back in the old Team Fortress. Its the insane damage reduction that comes with it. If the initial shot is enough to kill the spy, it should kill the spy.



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[*] posted on 10/13/2009 at 02:50 PM


I think you guys need to use it (the dead ringer) a little more, just becuase you might get killed by a spy with a dead ringer alot, or you kill the same spy 6 times before he is really dead, doesn't mean its over powered. Try playing it and you will see how hard it still is to use it correctly and be an effective spy.

If you can, well isn't it fun? all the classes gotta have some advantage over another.




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[*] posted on 10/13/2009 at 04:00 PM


The Dead Ringer shouldn't be able to survive a direct crit shot, especially a back stab crit by another Spy. Also a direct crit rocket from a Soldier should immediately kill a Spy using the Dead Ringer. If they were to fix it so that it cannot withstand a direct crit blow then I would see it as acceptable to the game. So the Spy would be able to still use the Dead Ringer just not live through getting hit by a direct crit when no other class can.

Crit Rockets can't kill the Dead Ringer,
A fully charged sniper rifle shot to the head can't kill the Dead Ringer,
A crit sticky or group of stickies can't kill the Dead Ringer.

By the way, Gnarsh, i've used the Dead Ringer before when it first came out and thank goodness you have to get metal to replenish it. That would've completely sucked if it replenished itself.

On another note, we should agree that any player doing the cloaked taunt kill as Spy should be immediate kicked and/or ban. Yes, Sentry, it was fixed, but people can still do it by hacking. It happened to me and Fresh Meat.




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[*] posted on 10/13/2009 at 05:16 PM


Being able to taunt while cloaked was never fixed, if it was they didn't do a good job because I can still do it. (using regular watch)
exploit =/= hack




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[*] posted on 10/13/2009 at 07:36 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by TheMasterPlan
Being able to taunt while cloaked was never fixed, if it was they didn't do a good job because I can still do it. (using regular watch)
exploit =/= hack


They got rid of taunting while disguised, IIRC.


And, since when could the dead ringer refill itself off ammo/dispensers? (O_o)




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[*] posted on 10/13/2009 at 08:46 PM


It's been able to refill by ammo/dispenser since they released it.
I did a bit of experimenting with an achievement map that automatically spawns a bunch of dispensers next to an area that damages you when you step on it. I disguised myself as the enemy, stepped on the pain platform to activate the ringer, and then stood next to the dispensers.

If standing near a Lv1 dispenser, the cloak drain would be slower, and last longer.
If standing near a Lv2, the drain was significantly slower, last much longer, but eventually would wear out.
Standing near a Lv3 dispenser (or between a pair of Lv1s) the cloak meter would actually go up, refilling faster than it drained. Giving unlimited cloaking time.

As I said above, it needs a nerf.




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[*] posted on 10/14/2009 at 08:07 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Mujaki
It's been able to refill by ammo/dispenser since they released it.


Aaaactually...

Quote:

JUNE 23, 2009, 3:21 PM - VALVE - PRODUCT UPDATE

Spy
Fixed disguised Spies occasionally looking like they have invulnerability, instead of the correct fake Spy mask
Disguised spies will no longer lose their disguise weapon when they interact with a weapon locker
Fixed a bug where the spy's watch would randomly change models during play
Fixed uncloaked spies flickering in and out of the cloak effect when taking damage
The Cloak and Dagger now always regenerates at its intended rate. Previously it only regenerated at the correct rate when the spy was cloaked
Increased the Cloak and Dagger regeneration rate slightly
Capped the rate of energy loss from moving faster than run speed (falling / air toss) while cloaked with the Cloak and Dagger
The Dead Ringer's cloak consume rate has been slightly reduced, giving about an extra second of cloak time on a full meter
Emerging from the Dead Ringer's cloak now drains up to 40% of the cloak meter instead of 100%. This drain only happens if the meter is at least 60% full
The Dead Ringer's cloak meter can now be regenerated from ammo sources
The Ambassador now only crits when fully accurate and no longer penetrates enemies
The Spy can no longer change weapons from the knife while shocked by the Razorback
Force-A-Nature & Flamethrower air blast knockback effects no longer work on disguised spies
Fixed disguised Spies showing the wrong teleporter effects when using an enemy teleporter


This was the update that made the dead ringer even remotely viable, let alone op.




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[*] posted on 10/14/2009 at 10:58 AM


And when was the spy update released?



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[*] posted on 10/14/2009 at 11:17 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Chicky
And when was the spy update released?

5/21/09

There's suppose to be a tf2 update of some kind today, maybe they will change the dead ringer.




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[*] posted on 10/14/2009 at 12:47 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by TheMasterPlan
There's suppose to be a tf2 update of some kind today, maybe they will change the dead ringer.


Let's hope so.




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[*] posted on 10/14/2009 at 02:17 PM


Nope.
A lot of changes but nothing exciting.




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[*] posted on 10/14/2009 at 06:26 PM


I must say I now agree with everyone hating the Dead Ringer. I don't think I'd hate it as much if the initial shot did the same amount of damage as normal.
Also, is it just me or to dead ringer spys not stay on fire for as long as usual?
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[*] posted on 10/14/2009 at 09:17 PM


if ur dead ringered the fire doesnt do any dmg at all. I agree the dead ringer should be fixed after they update the soldier
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[*] posted on 10/15/2009 at 09:00 AM


sigh, you guys just dont care if the spy can't survive past 1 stab, making him good enough just for suicide heavy stab runs.... shallow people. :headshake:



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[*] posted on 10/15/2009 at 09:38 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Gnarshmallow
sigh, you guys just dont care if the spy can't survive past 1 stab, making him good enough just for suicide heavy stab runs.... shallow people. :headshake:


A good spy can easily get away with a lot more than one stab, and live, without needing damage immunity.




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[*] posted on 10/15/2009 at 09:41 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Gnarshmallow
sigh, you guys just dont care if the spy can't survive past 1 stab, making him good enough just for suicide heavy stab runs.... shallow people. :headshake:


Just because you aren't a good enough spy to stay alive past 1 stab doesn't make us shallow.

I don't play spy so I don't claim to know the ins and outs of spying but I do know that I've been told by those who do play spy (and play it very well - none of this I have to have a dead ringer to get any kills crap) have told me that using Dead Ringer is equivalent to about 2000 health. That's WAY more than any other class - including the heavy. The spy isn't supposed to be the beefiest class out there. He's invisible, he can destroy EVERYTHING the engineer has with out ANY limit whatsoever (place sapper, place sapper, place sapper, place sapper, place sapper, place sapper, place....), and now when you kill him he doesn't really die?

Yeah - we're just being shallow..... he's definitely not overpowered or anything.




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[*] posted on 10/15/2009 at 02:50 PM


Well said Chicky. There should be an "ammo" amount of sappers a spy can place. Every other class has to "reload" and/or get more ammo.
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[*] posted on 10/15/2009 at 02:58 PM


I'm completely on board for the dead ringer being a bit obscene.
That said, I don't feel there is any problem with the way sapping currently works.

I do think engi should see buffs elsewhere, but not as direct nerfs to the spy.




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[*] posted on 10/15/2009 at 08:14 PM


Dead ringer spy should have the equivalent of 1250 life. 125 life with 90% damage reduction.

I also think the sapper is fine, its not that great and has been nerfed already. It takes almost 9 seconds to kill a level 3 sentry.




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[*] posted on 10/16/2009 at 10:29 AM


well i shouldn't have said "shallow people" (it was too early in the morning for me to be thinking) so i apologize. :wub: and yes numerics, a good spy can re-cloak and setup for another stab with out too much trouble, but not all spies are "good". Its just a crutch for the less skilled, like the FaN is for the scout....



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[*] posted on 10/16/2009 at 10:40 AM


Why should the spy, who is one of the fastest classes which can also insta kill with the back-stab also have so much life (or the equivalent of so much life)? It just doesn't seem very balanced to me.

I don't have a problem with the sappers being unlimited, but I don't think that spies should be able to re-charge off the engi dispenser while they are trying to take down their sg.

Don't get me started on scripting... :topic:




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[*] posted on 10/16/2009 at 11:23 AM


wgooch tested it, it takes about 2000 damage i think to kill them while they are invisible with dead ringer
people who know where the ammo crates are can dominate with it




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[*] posted on 10/16/2009 at 11:25 AM


Can we just auto-toggle beacon on spies who use the dead ringer :)



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[*] posted on 10/16/2009 at 11:41 AM


FYI - it's a hot topic in the steam TF2 forums as well:

"Hello Robin. I recently made a thread on the Steam Forums about the Dead Ringer and was encouraged to send an email to you about it.

The Dead Ringer is sending a mixed message to players. While its blurb in the Sniper vs. Spy update would imply that it's supposed to allow the Spy to fake his death when discovered and use the false sense of security created by it to reinforce his infiltration, it works quite differently in practice. For one, the fake deaths are often easy to distinguish from real ones -- simple pistol shots have been known to make the ragdolls fly across the map, explosives do not generate gibs, the fake ragdoll has a paper mask on it, and the Spy utters the death scream of the class he was disguised as. All of these are significant tells that the death was not genuine, and more people are realizing this every day. When combined with the unique decloak sound, no one but the newest of players is ever fooled by the Dead Ringer. This has directly led to Spies using it almost exclusively for its damage reduction properties, rather than for the fake death mechanic, which frankly is a shame.

Because Spies are using it for the damage reduction, other players find the Dead Ringer exceedingly annoying to fight against. While it is true that a Pyro can light up the Spy after he fakes his death and airblast him into a corner until it wears off, most players feel helpless to kill a Spy using it and become frustrated when the Spy manages to get away time after time despite making no attempt to be sneaky about it. There is also the well known tactic of decloaking just before picking up ammo, which effectively negates the cooldown enforced by the drain on decloaking, creating a cycle of feign death -> decloak -> pick up ammo -> feign death -> repeat that neither the Spy or the enemy can easily escape from without risking death by the other party. Again, most people find this frustrating.

In an attempt to address the issues faced by both sides, I made a topic on the Steam Forums ( http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...d.php?t=984986 ) outlining some proposed changes to the Dead Ringer that attempt to help Spies that use it to fake their death while hindering Spies that attempt to spam it for the reduced damage. It is unfortunately a rather large wall of text, but I honestly believe that it would help alleviate a lot of the frustration felt by both parties -- Spies who cannot use the Dead Ringer to properly escape and enemies who cannot effectively combat a Spy who is simply spamming the reduced damage."




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[*] posted on 10/16/2009 at 04:58 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Fresh Meat
Why should the spy, who is one of the fastest classes which can also insta kill with the back-stab also have so much life (or the equivalent of so much life)? It just doesn't seem very balanced to me.

Spy, Sniper, Pyro, and Engy all run at the same speed. This is considered normal run speed(100%). Medic(107%) and scout are faster(133%). Demo(93%) solider(80%) and heavy(77%) are slower. I wouldn't really consider a 4 way tie for 3rd as "one of the fastest classes". Disguising as a slower class changes the Spy's speed equal to that class (unless cloaked).

Quote:
Originally posted by Imago
wgooch tested it, it takes about 2000 damage i think to kill them while they are invisible with dead ringer
people who know where the ammo crates are can dominate with it
I would like to see how wgooch tested it because i just tested it and he is wrong. Its 90% damage reduction with the damage rounded up.

Uncharged sniper headshot 15 (normally does 150 damage)
Noscope sniper shot 5-6 (normally does 43-57 damage)
Charged sniper headshot 45 (normally does 450 damage)
Charged huntsman headshot 36 (normally does 360 damage)

using "hurtme" console command:
1244/10 = 124.4 -> 124 damage
1245/10 = 124.5 -> 125 damage
(100 * 10)/10 = 100 damage

Backstabbing was interesting apparently it does 6 times the life you currently have. so with dead ringer it takes 6/10 of your life. The only way you can kill a dead ringer with a back stab is if they have 1 life.

I could have tested explosives but the damage varies by distance from explosion even with no damage spread on. I also searched online and found three separate test that confirmed mine so I was like meh not worth the effort to test explosions.




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[*] posted on 10/16/2009 at 07:10 PM


ROFL Master you spent time figuring out how to kill a spy, plus1



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[*] posted on 10/17/2009 at 08:31 PM


spys should be able to recharge from enemy engi dispensers, otherwise ppl would realise he's a spy easier. plus it makes sense if u think about it. Anyways dead ringer needs a nerf, just make it so the cloak time is longer by like 2 secs and ammo pickups dont recharge cloak. Then it would be fine
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[*] posted on 10/21/2009 at 02:17 PM


note to self: stop confusing the DR with C&D.



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[*] posted on 10/21/2009 at 04:40 PM


Did I forget to mention that I hate the Dead Ringer and pity those who use it? :nutkick:



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